"Just Jeepin'" (macintux)
10/15/2019 at 11:57 • Filed to: None
5
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"Just Jeepin'" (macintux)
10/15/2019 at 11:57 • Filed to: None | 5
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Yes, politics.
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Ash78, voting early and often
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 12:06 |
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Crazy. We as the audience need to also ask ourselves how our outrage would differ if this story were about a Guatemalan family on vacation in Mexico, then accidentally drove into Texas.
I find that kind of thing to be a useful mental exercise, in part because the media is really playing up First-World/White/UK Privilege in trying to provoke some outrage here. OTOH, at least our crazy heavy-handedness is consistent...ly insane.
They should have just claimed asylum from Brexit to see what happens.
MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick)
> Ash78, voting early and often
10/15/2019 at 12:10 |
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Agreed. This frustrates me because I’m sure there are many more genuine concerns regarding ICE and immigration, but here instead the focus is on one sensationalized event that we’re intended to empathize with
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Ash78, voting early and often
> MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick)
10/15/2019 at 12:14 |
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Yeah, and unfortunately sometimes we need those lightning rods to get anything done. It isn’t fair, but sometimes people just need someone to more readily empathize with (culturally, language, ethnicity, etc). If the end result is better policy, then everyone wins. I just hate how the media has turned into an “
anecdote machine” in recently years. Or at least a system that churns out extreme examples as the norm. Either way, this particular case is what happens when policy overrides common sense.
ttyymmnn
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 12:17 |
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I read about this earlier today. I have to wonder if there isn’t more to the story. I certainly hope so.
Chariotoflove
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 12:19 |
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I wouldn’t damn the whole country because of the poor actions of certain individuals. Rather than use this story to condemn the nation , I’d like to see it used to shake up the internal hiring and training procedures in US Im migration.
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MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick)
> Ash78, voting early and often
10/15/2019 at 12:19 |
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I never thought about it that way, the empathy thing. Neat
PS9
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 12:22 |
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If I ran the UK, I would demand immediate redress for this . Failure to provide it would mean the end of diplomatic relations with the United States.
InFierority Complex
> ttyymmnn
10/15/2019 at 12:26 |
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The “we took a detour because there was an animal in the road” is kinda a weird detail that doesn’t make much sense to me.
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ttyymmnn
> InFierority Complex
10/15/2019 at 12:31 |
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Exactly. It’s like the drunk who totaled my VW in front of my house and told the cops he swerved to miss a dog. Even though the ICE response seems way overboard, I think there are some details missing here.
DipodomysDeserti
> Chariotoflove
10/15/2019 at 12:32 |
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I bet if you check, nothing the agents did is against policy or out of the norm (other than the people were from Europe rather than central/south America). Their treatment falls in line with what’s been being reported at detention facilities on the Southern border for well over a year now. (Your constitutional liberties are also kind of suspended in border regions, so being detained, even if you’re an American, is not technically illegal.)
Acceptance of this type of widespread behavior by our federal government is starting to reflect poorly on us as a whole (as it should).
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ttyymmnn
> PS9
10/15/2019 at 12:33 |
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Don’t forget this .
bob and john
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 12:34 |
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how TF do you accidentally cross the border. there is no accident here.
you dont just ‘accidentally’ miss something like this...and this is the TINY one near thunder bay.
that aside, that seem like a bit of over kill....flying them around to place...what a waste of tax payer dollars.
Discerning
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 12:34 |
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I had no idea that it was that easy to accidentally cross the boarder. I mean, I guess it isn't since they got pulled over and arrested.
facw
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 12:34 |
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Yep, reminds me of the jogger who was held for two weeks for crossing on the beach, where apparently there aren’t signs (mentioned at the end of the article you linked to):
Seems to me there are three big problems here:
Overreactions to minor trespasses
Failure to be able to process immigration cases quickly. I’d much rather be spending money for more judges and support staff than border barriers and incarceration
Failure to treat people with basic human dignity. There’s no reason to treat people like criminals or animals. That holds even more true in cases like this where the crossing may be accidental, or even more universally in cases where you are dealing with children.
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DipodomysDeserti
> ttyymmnn
10/15/2019 at 12:35 |
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I mean, the only thing that seems out of the ordinary for DHS is that they did it to a white family. Everything is else represents the same behavior that DHS has been exhibiting for the last eighteen years or so. I’ve carried my passport and my kids passports on all road trips around the US since they were born. Saw DHS too way to many sketchy things in the Southern Arizona desert to trust them.
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Chariotoflove
> DipodomysDeserti
10/15/2019 at 12:35 |
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I don’t know the detailed border policies. I am an advocate of proper border control in general. But I feel like you can do the same job effectively while being either compassionate or a dick. I would like to see us standardizing on compassion.
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facw
> PS9
10/15/2019 at 12:37 |
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The UK won’t do that because they’d know we’d call their bluff. If anything they need to be especially submissive in their relations with the US right now, because if Brexit finally happens, they are going to need to strike a new deal with the US, and with EU relations damaged, the US becomes an even more important trading partner than we already are. They are already in a very weak position, they can’t afford to lose any goodwill.
Textured Soy Protein
> Ash78, voting early and often
10/15/2019 at 12:42 |
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Pretty sure the entire point here is basically,
“See! Even white folks with visas got fucked by CBP/ICE !”
MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
> bob and john
10/15/2019 at 12:44 |
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I assume there are more remote roads that don’t have a border station and there are places like this that developed before strict border enforcement really was a thing
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DipodomysDeserti
> Chariotoflove
10/15/2019 at 12:45 |
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I agree, but we’ve focused on the being a dick approach since 9/11, and it’s been widely reported on. My buddies that became BP agents were combat Marines for a decade prior to that. They went from running checkpoints in Iraq to border stops in Arizona. Not a good labor pool to pull from if your looking for compassion. Very good labor pool to pull from if you’re looking to scare the absolute shit our of people.
The willingness to imprison people in overcrowded facilities and separated them from their kids, even when they offer to go back, should be extremely concerning to all of us.
haveacarortwoorthree2
> bob and john
10/15/2019 at 12:50 |
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As someone else pointed out, something seems off about the avoid-an-animal story and end up in the US. But not every road between the US and Canada has a border crossing outpost. ALthough I am sure controls are a bit tighter now, I had an uncle that lived near the MN-Canada border and he and his friends would cross on back roads all the time.
JustAnotherG6
> bob and john
10/15/2019 at 12:55 |
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I thought I recognized
that border crossing...
someassemblyrequired
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 12:58 |
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How much did this $#@$show cost vs. just processing them and then sending them back to Canada. Taxpayers should be pissed.
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someassemblyrequired
> Chariotoflove
10/15/2019 at 13:00 |
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The proper response here would have been just to record their details, issue a ban on re-entry, and send them back to Canada.
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facw
> bob and john
10/15/2019 at 13:00 |
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I don’t know exactly where this happened, but clearly it was not at a border crossing point. The US/Canadian border is mostly open. For example this:
The road on the left is in Canada, cross that little grass strip and you are in the US.
Svend
> facw
10/15/2019 at 13:01 |
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Not quite. The U.K. has been working on individual deals with countries around the world for the la st two years, even European countries we are currently trying to separate from the E.U. as a whole have been in negotiations .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47213842
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So far, the UK has signed 15 “continuity” deals covering 40 countries or territories. All together, these deals are worth about 8% of total UK trade.
Tunisia (signed 4 October)
Lebanon (19 September)
South Korea (22 August)
Central America (18 July)
Andean countries (15 May)
Norway and Iceland (2 April)
Caribbean countries (22 March)
Pacific Islands (14 March)
Liechtenstein (28 February)
Israel (18 February)
Palestinian Authority (18 February)
Switzerland (11 February)
The Faroe Islands (1 February)
Eastern and Southern Africa (31 January)
Chile (30 January)
In addition, the government announced on 11 September that it had secured “an agreement in principle” with six African nations - South Africa, Botswana, Lesotho, Namibia, Eswatini (formerly Swaziland) and Mozambique.
The deal is expected to be formally signed off “shortly”.
The UK has also said some deals won’t be rolled over in time for 31 October. San Marino, Andorra and Turkey won’t be ready because these countries are already in a customs union with the EU. A deal with Japan - which is worth over 2% of UK trade - also won’t be ready.
The only deals that scare the British people are the ones with the U.S. as we don’t wanted ch lorinated chicken, we don’t want our system relaxed to do business with the U.S. or the U.S. to have anything at all to do with our NHS.
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Textured Soy Protein
> Discerning
10/15/2019 at 13:02 |
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Hard to figure out the specifics because the article doesn’t provide them. I looked at the aerial view of the border between BC and WA and there don’t appear to be many roads that cross the border.
There are many roads that run along the border on either side, and in many spots there are parallel roads along the border, with one in BC and the other in WA, with nothing but a grass median separating them. For example:
I supp
ose they could’ve been
driving along 0 Ave in BC, veered off to avoid a cow
, crossed that grass median,
ended up on Boundary Rd in WA, and kept going. But who knows?
wafflesnfalafel
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 13:07 |
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C an’t be too careful, I’m sure those British folks are still steaming about that whole 1812 thing.
Honestly, I’m super curious about the details on this one. It could be tragically horrible, or somewhat less so...
BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind
> haveacarortwoorthree2
10/15/2019 at 13:11 |
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That then begs the question - why would ANYONE go through a major boarder crossing when you can just drive on a side road instead?
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facw
> Svend
10/15/2019 at 13:13 |
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Yeah, but those are minor trading partners. It’s basically guaranteed that deals with the EU powers will be worse than what you have now, and those are what’s important.
In any event, the US is the UK’s largest single trading partner, and they will need to make a new deal.
As for the NHS, I wouldn’t trust Boris Johnson on that until you have a deal done (and even then, I’d watch out, if the British economy shrinks post-Brexit (most economists seem to think it will, the question is by how much ), it will fuel calls from conservatives for more belt-tightening).
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BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 13:14 |
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Not growing up in a boarder state, it never occurred to me that there isn’t some deliberate (even a barbed-wire cattle style “fence”) separation between the countries. Wild.
Manny05x
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 13:21 |
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do you think this would of been news had they been Mexican citizens?
jimz
> BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind
10/15/2019 at 13:22 |
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raises the question
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Svend
> facw
10/15/2019 at 13:23 |
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Many of these countries have been minor trading partners because we could trade further with them without having to put it to the whole of the E.U.
While we get on with the U.S. and have extensive relations with the U.S. it is not the be all and end all of Britain’s continued existence.
Boris is the one who put it to trump, but all U.K. politicians (U.K. government, Scottish parliament, Welsh parliament and the Northern Irish ) have no wish for any involvement with U.S. pharmaceutical companies taking over hospitals as the U.S. as repeatedly asked for unhindered access to all areas of the British economy, wants U.S. companies to be able to sue the British government if the British government doesn’t agree to let them operate as they’d like. trump has even stated that any deal will not be equal or benefit the U.K. as near as much as it would the U.S.
gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
> BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind
10/15/2019 at 13:27 |
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They’re in the middle of bumfuck
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DipodomysDeserti
> bob and john
10/15/2019 at 13:29 |
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I don’t know if they’ve completely paved over Canada yet, but there are a whole bunch of ways to accidentally cross the border in southern Arizona, New Mexico and Texas, especially if you don’t know where you are. I’ve gotten close while backpacking in college, and got to meet some nice gentlemen who informed me how close I was (and that I should be careful because a shootout had happened nearby).
The border doesn’t just stop existing outside of official crossings.
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facw
> Svend
10/15/2019 at 13:30 |
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They are small trading partners because the small and/or distant. It’s not likely being out the EU is going to help expansion at all. The EU has better leverage on trade deals than the UK alone.
I don’t doubt that most UK politicians are smart enough to know that the NHS is a live-wire issue, but UK privatization has been repeatedly raised by the Tories, so someone definitely wants it. I don’t think they’d be dumb enough to agree to it as part of trade deal, but if they privatize, you can have no doubt American companies would swoop in to buy up the pieces.
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Chariotoflove
> DipodomysDeserti
10/15/2019 at 13:43 |
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It’s not really fair to put people trained for combat into what should be partly an ambassadorial role.
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Chariotoflove
> someassemblyrequired
10/15/2019 at 13:44 |
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America: kicking the British out since 1776.
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haveacarortwoorthree2
> BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind
10/15/2019 at 13:54 |
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Because most people (a) don’t want to knowingly break the law and/or (b) are afraid of the consequences if they get caught. In a rural area like where my uncle lived, everyone knew/knew of almost everyone else within a 50 mile radius so there really wasn’t a thought of “Hey, this is illegal.”
WiscoProud
> bob and john
10/15/2019 at 13:56 |
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Are you dense? The northern border is porous as hell. There aren’t check points at every little road. Hell, by me you can get into Canada through the boundary waters, which are a only accessible by canoe.
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gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
> facw
10/15/2019 at 13:58 |
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And those Non European trading partners are overall poor. Not too many jag exports
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Svend
> facw
10/15/2019 at 14:05 |
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Yes they are small trading partners, but it’s a start. Yes the E.U. has better leverage in some regards, but the E.U. has to take in comments and approvals for all countries to agree to a trade deal. Hence the issue with the U.K. leaving the E.U., any deals have to be approved with all the other countries.
F rance objected to us buying bananas from British Commonwealth countries over French territory countries. We sited France was favouring there’s but as France see’s all it’s territory as French soil we had no recourse. every country has it’s quirks. Take the U.S. and it’s territories. Foreign countries can’t ship to U.S. territories such as Puerto Rico, only U.S. ships can.
Then I’ll be one of the first to head down to London to protest. Lol.
People don’t like it if you mess with the NHS too much and it’d be suicide for any political party to do so.
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gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
> Svend
10/15/2019 at 14:20 |
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Foreign ships can go to Puerto Rico, they just can’t continue on to another us port.
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Svend
> gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
10/15/2019 at 14:32 |
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M y bad, I miss interpreted the Jones Act. To exclude foreign nations from direct trade with Puerto Rico.
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DipodomysDeserti
> Chariotoflove
10/15/2019 at 14:48 |
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As far as my buddies are/were concerned, they had no ambassadorial roles. There’s a reason they are apart of the Department of Homeland Security.
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Chariotoflove
> DipodomysDeserti
10/15/2019 at 14:52 |
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That’s kind of my point. It’s possible to do security without being hard assed. But I realize that’s unlikely to change any time soon. I’m sure they were doing their jobs as instructed.
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gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
> Svend
10/15/2019 at 15:06 |
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Technically not banned, its just commercially unprofitable to make a special trip.
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someassemblyrequired
> Chariotoflove
10/15/2019 at 15:34 |
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Yeah, and $500 worth of some CBP person’s time vs. probably $4000/night minimum
, plus transportation costs and a one-way ticket back to the UK. It’s probably six-figures in direct costs to the US taxpayer doing it this way
.
Plus there’s the damage to US tourism, which is probably an order of magnitude bigger.
BigBlock440
> Svend
10/15/2019 at 15:58 |
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Foreign countries can’t ship to U.S. territories such as Puerto Rico, only U.S. ships can.
Not true, they just can’t be used to ferry goods from other US ports to Puerto Rico. Not everything you read on a blog is true.
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BigBlock440
> BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind
10/15/2019 at 16:00 |
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But we don’t have porous borders, it’s not a crisis, and barriers are ineffective.
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Svend
> BigBlock440
10/15/2019 at 16:05 |
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As gmporschenut as already said and I stand corrected.
Also the ‘blog’ was ‘dedicated to Puerto Rico . org’, I read it incorrectly.
https://dedicatedtopuertorico.org/know-the-facts/
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Chariotoflove
> someassemblyrequired
10/15/2019 at 16:17 |
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$$ impact on US tourism in the long run: likely negligible.
Treating people properly because it’s the right thing to do: priceless.
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BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind
> BigBlock440
10/15/2019 at 16:21 |
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Oh, I agree with you 100%. It just never really occurred to me that there wasn’t a physical “line” to be crossed. Growing up in PA my only real experience crossing another state line was into NJ, NY, or MD on 95 ; I was probably 18 or 20 before I realized you could get into another state without a toll plaza.
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ttyymmnn
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 17:46 |
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Here is the CBP’s side of the story:
CBP officials disputed the family’s version of events and said the Connors were spotted via video surveillance “slowly and deliberately driving through a ditch onto Boundary Road in Blaine, Washington” between parallel roadways on the U.S. and Canadian sides. The roads are not connected by cross streets, and the only legal way to traverse between the countries is at staffed border stations throughout the region.
. . . .
The CBP statement said U.S. agents also determined that two of the family members had applied for travel authorization to visit the United States and were denied. A senior CBP official said the Connors applied for visa waivers last year, and it was not immediately clear why they were rejected.
. . . .
The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the case, said the family — four adults and three small children — were in possession of $16,000 in cash at the time of their arrest.
“Attempts were made to return the individuals to Canada, however, Canada refused to allow their return and two attempts to contact the United Kingdom consulate were unsuccessful,” the CBP statement read. ( WaPo )
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Just Jeepin'
> ttyymmnn
10/15/2019 at 17:56 |
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Interesting . None of which excuses the blatant child endangerment.
I thought later I should have added this:
“They could have found a dead hooker, a pound of cocaine, and a nuclear bomb in their trunk and none of that would justify the way they’re mistreating a 3-month-old baby.”
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ttyymmnn
> Just Jeepin'
10/15/2019 at 18:03 |
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You are correct, but you also can’t take the family’s word about their treatment at face value if they are misrepresenting how and why they got arrested. That said, the cases of child abuse at the southern border are documented, so their accusations certainly sound believable.
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someassemblyrequired
> Chariotoflove
10/15/2019 at 20:53 |
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Yep it’s always important to treat people properly, but the economic impacts are more than negligible.
The U.S.’s market share of global travel has dropped 2% since 2015 - visits are 14.5% below what they would have been if that share had been maintained. And a foreign tourist tends to spend substantially more than someone traveling within the U.S. They’re going to think twice about visiting the U.S. if they know they’re going to get hassled and potentially incarcerated for some mundane or perceived
violation.
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Chariotoflove
> someassemblyrequired
10/15/2019 at 23:55 |
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I think it might be a bit of a stretch to attribute a significant drop in national tourism to publication of a single family’s story. Perhaps if theirs was a common and well known experience, but I see no reason to believe that legitimate tourists to the US, especially from English speaking countries, are encountering substantial hassles from border personnel on a regular basis.
pip bip - choose Corrour
> ttyymmnn
10/16/2019 at 04:09 |
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interesting , that info hasn’t been reported here
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someassemblyrequired
> Chariotoflove
10/16/2019 at 10:52 |
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As any marketer will tell you, bad publicity adds up a lot quicker than goodwill. Here - from 2 weeks ago:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/increase-bans-canada-us-border-1.5300708
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Chariotoflove
> someassemblyrequired
10/16/2019 at 15:15 |
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Well that’s true. On the other hand, it’s good to see that we are taking steps to keep those canucks from overrunning us. We’re building the wall on the wrong side. :p